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Text of Online Discussions between the scientists and the students
AS Level teaching materials
Online Science Discussion | Online
English Discussion | Online RE Discussion | Online
Discussion of 'Other Matters'
AS Level teaching materials
The Holy Cross School is a Catholic High School, formerly called Holy Cross
Convent School. As part of the STAR Project, we were involved in discussions
with Joe Kolecki, NASA Pathfinder scientist, on many levels.
Part of this discussion involved more personal remarks about religion, as Joe is a Catholic, as well as a scientist (and an organist, and a composer, and an improviser, and an on-line teacher, and a friend.)
The following dialogue between the various participants cannot be posted on the NASA STAR web site itself, as it involves religious comments, and as a US government employee, Joe cannot comment directly on religion. However, as an American Christian emailing with UK Christian students, it is certainly appropriate for MirandaNet to carry this discussion.
Below, we show part of the email dialogue between my AS Level English class, and Joe. They show clearly a Catholic view of space science, and that science and religion are in no way as heavily “at odds” as some people seem to think.
Explanation of the emails
I, Lawrence Williams, as the Quaker teacher of the Catholic AS level English
Language group, sent Joe an email written by Jack, a student from Richard
Challoner School, our partner school at AS and A2 Levels, and Joe replied,
as you can see below, in great detail.
Ruth Petersen, NASA education co-ordinator and also a Christian, asked to be “kept in the loop”, hence her reference. Again, it is important to note that she is commenting here to me, as a friend, not as a NASA employee.
This is therefore a four-way dialogue:
o Joe first, in blue
o Ruth’s remark to me, then
o Part of my initial email, then
o the rest of Joe’s detailed reply, with the Christmas carol verses
interspersed
o Jack signing off
The final section of main discussion is about a Christmas carol written by Sydney Carter, a Quaker song-writer, that we studied in class, as I thought might present a challenge to the students.
These notes formed part of the next English lessons with my group, and fed directly into the stories the students wrote for their AS Level English Coursework.
LW 9.01.06
The email discussion:
Hi Jack,
I have taken quite a bit of leave during the holidays. We have three grandchildren and two more on the way. But I am finally back in the saddle, and looking forward to taking up this discussion! I have interlined some comments in your original text.
At 09:01 AM 12/20/2005 -0500, you (Ruth A Petersen) wrote:
Dear Lawrence
That is a discussion I would love to hear. Your student has some very interesting questions!
Ruth
At 12:26 PM 12/20/2005 +0000, L.C Williams wrote:
Dear Joe,
I am appending below another aspect of STAR that we have discussed briefly in class. I think you will enjoy engaging in this....
Jack writes:
I am a student at the Holy Cross sixth form college, and have been given the task in our English lessons of contemplating the religious and philosophical implications of travelling into space to discover intelligent life.
Nearly all earth religions that I have looked at are based around Earth being the only planet to house intelligent life. In particular, Christianity, as Christians believe that Jesus came to Earth and died so that our sins could be forgiven. The story of Creation adds weight to this argument, as it does not describe God creating life on any other planets. This raises some serious questions:
If there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe then surely Jesus would have to visit them also, so that their sins could be forgiven?.
I don't know. Let's try a reverse approach. Jesus came to die for people only. I mean that He did not also die for whales, for example, or spiders or any of the higher primates, all of which also comprise intelligent species on earth.
Intelligence is relative; i.e., we must always use an adjective to specify the particular intelligence to which we are referring: human intelligence, versus whale intelligence, versus spider intelligence, versus higher primate intelligence, etc. Apparently, intelligence cannot be absolutely defined (ask anyone in the AI community!). And yet, almost always, we implicitly tend to think of intelligence only in terms of human intelligence i.e., ourselves.
Let’s substitute the term free will for the term intelligence. There are only two types of free will (apart from God Who is absolutely free) identified by theologians: angelic and human. We are not aware that free will exists in any other species on earth (or in heaven); although, to be fair, we are also not aware that it does not.
At any rate, let’s use free will in place of intelligence and see where it leads.
Free will implies choice, and choice implies the possibility of sin (the whole choice being to sin or to not-sin). Sin is what salvation is all about. And Jesus came to bring salvation to people.
Sin is of two broad types: human and angelic.
Before the foundation of the world, God established all of the laws by which all things are to abide. In human terms, each law carries within itself a statement of "action" and "reaction": i.e., an antecedent and a consequent.
Apply fire to an object and it will become hot.
Hit a man in the nose and you’d better duck!
All things everywhere are absolutely bound by God’s laws. Nothing is exempt. The justice of God is made manifest exactly in that there are no exemptions. All things are given an equal footing.
In terms of a response to God’s law, angels and humans are given a very special freedom of choice free will so that whatever consequences they shall eternally endure are not dictated at all by God by determined by themselves i.e., by their chosen actions.
Now, apart from free will, sin is not possible. If animals (and, by extension, plants) do not have free will, then animal and plant sin is not possible. Therefore, such creatures as whales (and so on) are not in need of any sort of salvation. This same argument might apply to extraterrestrials.
The free choice given to angels and to humans is whether to submit completely to God’s holy will and thus to permit Him to make His will their will, or to draw back from submission and to strike off in another (nonexistent) direction of their own choosing (which other direction is purely illusory a trick of the devil a liar and the father of lies).
Remember Mary’s fiat: “Be it done unto me according to Thy will.”
And the Lord’s prayer: “ Thy will be done…”
Submission to His will is God's only and supreme desire for us. Submission affirms that we wish God to utterly and completely possess us and to make of us everything that He desires for us to be from before the foundation of the world.
N.B.: In becoming slaves to God, so to speak, we become absolutely free to be everything we were originally created to be no holds barred!
Non-submission affirms that we wish to follow some other (non-existent) path, and so not to become slaves of God. Since non-submission is the negation of submission, it follows that in non-submission we shall become nothing that God intended from the beginning.
N.B.: In denying holy slavery to God, we actually loose every last vestige of our freedom to be everything that we were created to be. Nothing is left!
And there are no other alternatives!
So we now ask: what is it, exactly, that God intends for us from before the foundation of the world? God intends for each of us to be something (opposed to nothing); i.e., to bear forth some attribute of His ineffable Being, the Name and Essence of which is I AM, the Name spoken to Moses.
In bearing forth some attribute of His Being, we reflect the glory of God within ourselves and render to Him perfect praise.
God created us from nothing (ex nihilo ). Nothing was the raw material God used in making us! If we reject the something that God intended, then we must settle for the only possible alternative: i.e., the nothing that we originally were. And to do so is death.
Hence scripture tells us that the consequence of sin is death.
Note that death is very different from un-creation : God does not uncreate ; once having created anything, that creation endures for eternity. The love of God precludes uncreation .
Death is a reversion from whatever we are now to the nothingness from which we were created rather than a conversion from our former sinful self into the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. This reversion, far from uncreation, involves an eternal awareness of what we might have been but ultimately rejected . Pure hell!!!
Earlier, I suggested that sin is what salvation is all about. Let’s consider sin in angels and humans.
Angels were created outside of time and space. Angels are spiritual: their only single spacetime limitation is a temporal one: all angels had a beginning. Beyond that, they are spaceless and timeless.
We say that the angels are aveternal or sempiternal.
This might seem a big nut to swallow, so let’s break it down. Spiritual realities are non-corporeal (nonmaterial) and, therefore, timeless and spaceless (since time and space pertain only to matter cf., general relativity or your favorite theologian!).
Spirit is manifest whenever and wherever it acts.
Truth is spiritual. Truth has no material substance or form, no molecular formula. Truth can act in as many or as few places and times in which it is being practiced. Truth does not change with time or location, truth cannot be divided or multiplied (hence it is called simple - Aristotle, Aquinas).
Ditto for love, justice, hope, etc.
The sin of the fallen angels pure spirits - was accomplished outside of space and time. Each angel made its own choice. Angels do not procreate as humans do. Thus, there are no generations of angels as there are generations of people. Each angel is a “species” unto itself.
Once the fallen angels sinned, everything was over for them. There were no future generations to save. The fallen angels had chosen once and for all, each angel each angel species - for itself.
And down they went. “The dragon dragged a third of the stars from the heavens with its tail.” (Book of Revelation.)
When Adam sinned, on the other hand, he did so in space and time. All of the rest of humanity (including you and me) was still future : “in his loins.” Thus, Adam made a choice that damned not only himself but the entire future human race in every land and on every continent countless unborn generations yet to come .
This hardly seems fair! If humanity were to be given the same chance as the angels, then each individual human being should be given the opportunity of applying his/her free will for him/her-self. I for one certainly don’t want the consequences of Adam’s choice on my back!!!
Materiality complicates the “individuality thing” spoken of for angels in that, while physically we are many individuals, able to procreate offspring, we are still only one race one species - the human race Homo sapiens-sapiens . Thus, in the action of only one man, the entire race went down!
But God in His Mercy had already made perfect provision for the rest of us: He took upon Himself the full consequences of Adam’s sin (and everybody else’s too) and reopened the possibility of heaven for each and every individual.
In one man, humanity sinned. In that same man hung all the future of the race. Therefore all of humanity must endure the consequences. It was as though Adam had lost his God-likeness through sin, and so no longer had it to pass on to his offspring.
If, in one man (Adam), the entire race fell, then in another man (Jesus) every individual was restored to grace.
Finite creation had offended an infinite God; therefore, an infinite debt now existed which a finite humanity could never pay back. A pretty bitter conundrum to be sure!
Solution: Infinite God Himself became man and, sinless, bore our sins and endured the just death which is their due.
Jesus Christ was incarnate in time and space; He lived and died in time and space; and He rose from the dead in time and space, the promise of our own future resurrection.
An infinite debt was now completely satisfied by a Sacrifice of infinite merit. The just requirements of the law were fulfilled and grace flooded in. Now each person was is - free to choose for him/her-self between life and death.
In this present age of grace, each person who accepts and receives Jesus Christ in baptism is renewed in spirit, even though each must still await the renewal of the body. This renewal will only occur at the resurrection from the dead at the end of time when all things are made new.
This rather long argument demonstrates (I hope) the deeply human nature of sin and salvation. Whether other species elsewhere on earth or in space - might be similarly affected, God alone knows: but I believe not.
If we were to find intelligent life on some distant planet, and they had never heard of God or Jesus, or any other world religion, how would this affect religion on Earth?
As before, it would depend on the nature of that intelligence. Since you specifically ask about religion , permit me to argue that religion per se is purely a human phenomenon.
Consider an analogy: I have a set of tuned bells. Each bell rings when struck, but each bell produces a different tone from all the others. Let’s say that one particular bell, which resonates at, say, middle-C, represents humanity. Let the note it produces, middle-C, stand for that particular response to God and His creation that we humans call religion .
Since all the other bells produce tones other than middle-C, we may argue that they must represent something other than humanity, and their resonant frequencies, something other than religion. If another bell were to exist that produced middle-C, we would have to argue that its identity with the humanity bell must also make it a humanity bell.
In this analogy, religion is a purely human phenomenon.
Our “middle-C” response is not particularly conditioned by the fact, say, that humpback whales have recently been discovered to be able to communicate their songs over vast stretches of the ocean floor. Whale songs are considered by many to be a kind of language, and therefore indicative of some sort of non-human intelligence.
If our religion is not deeply impacted by a deepening awareness of whale intelligence on earth, then it is probable that it will not be deeply impacted by being made aware of extraterrestrial intelligence. Only if that extraterrestrial intelligence turned out to be human (another middle-C bell) would religion be impacted; otherwise, I believe that religion would continue to go along pretty well as it always has.
Mr Williams did show us a Christmas carol in one of our lessons that somewhat encapsulates a very positive view of all religions, as well as any that may exist on any other planets.
And here it is:
A Carol of the Universe
Sydney Carter
Every star shall sing a carol;
Every creature, high or low,
Come and praise the King of Heaven,
By whatever name you know.
Book of Job: And the angels shouted with joy at the dawn of creation.
When the King of all creation
Had a cradle on the Earth,
Holy was the human body,
Holy was the human birth:
Remember that Jesus was both human and divine. His divinity came from His being begotten of the Father in eternity, His body, from being born of the virgin in time. Jesus is often referred to as the God-man or man-God for this reason.
Who can tell what other cradle
High above the Milky Way
Still may rock the King of Heaven
On another Christmas day?
Every living heart holds the Word of God within itself. Remember, the Father created all things through the Word Who is identified as the Son of God and Son of Man, Jesus Christ. Wherever there is life, that life must be a cradle which either holds Him or rejects Him not necessarily in His humanity only, but in His humanity and divinity combined as one.
Who can count how many crosses
Still to come or long ago
Crucify the King of Heaven?
Holy is the name I know:
I do not know that this verse is justified. I cite the long argument I gave above.
Who can tell what other body
He will hallow for his own?
I will praise the son of Mary
Brother of my blood and bone.
Scripture has it that Jesus died once for all (Pauline epistles). I wonder if this is to be interpreted in terms of earth only, or in terms of all the universe?
Every star and every planet,
Every creature high and low,
Come and praise the King of Heaven
By whatever name you know
This lovely verse reminds me of the heavenly praise described in the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse).
I look forward to your response after the Christmas holidays.
Thank you. I look forward to your response back!!!
Merry Christmas (belatedly) and a happy and blessed new year!
Joe Kolecki
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Jack
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